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phil44

Posts: 108
Registered: 18-Jun-2010
Re-compression of jpeg images in jAlbum
Posted: 25 Oct 23, 18:29
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JeffTucker has posted several messages in recent days regarding the correct quality settings for jpeg images ( here, here...). This led me to ask myself some questions on this subject.

I usually take my photos in raw+jpeg (medium quality), and I import the jpegs into jAlbum. Here we have a first loss of quality due to jpeg compression. But Jeff's messages made me realize that jAlbum, unless I misunderstand, also applies jpeg compression, therefore on images that have already lost a little information. In this case, wouldn't it be useful to increase the quality of jpegs above 85% in jAlbum? Does my reasoning make sense?

I am well aware that, to resize images or apply a correction, jAlbum has no other choice than to decompress the original image and do its job before re-compressing it.

However, if the image does not need special processing (image that fits the max bounds of the slides, that does not need to be cropped nor corrected, etc.), does jAlbum let it as is, without re-compression, before uploading it to the server? If so, would it be a good or bad idea to increase the image limits (e.g. 3000x3000) and import smaller images (e.g. 2000x1500).

Thanks in advance for your opinion
RobM

Posts: 3,925
Registered: 4-Aug-2006
Re: Re-compression of jpeg images in jAlbum
Posted: 25 Oct 23, 20:07   in response to: phil44 in response to: phil44
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Attachment bounds of 20000.png (227.0 KB)
See the attached, bounds set to 20,000. Original on the left, slide page on the right, No filters applied.

But why shoot with RAW and then use the JPG, unless everything is exactly as you want it?
JeffTucker

Posts: 7,935
Registered: 31-Jan-2006
Re: Re-compression of jpeg images in jAlbum
Posted: 25 Oct 23, 20:14   in response to: phil44 in response to: phil44
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Not to go too far down this rabbit hole, some things to remember:

First, no camera on the planet shoots JPG's. The image is recorded in a RAW format. So, whether you take that RAW image and convert it to JPG in an app, or whether you let the camera convert it to JPG, it's still going through an initial round of compression.

Second, if the image is scaled for use on a website, which scaling is going to be better? The scaling done by the camera (if different output sizes are available), the scaling done by some other app, or the scaling done by jAlbum? Your guess is as good as mine.

Finally, if, in a double-blind test, you can't tell the difference between the results produced by various different paths, it doesn't matter, does it?
JeffTucker

Posts: 7,935
Registered: 31-Jan-2006
Re: Re-compression of jpeg images in jAlbum
Posted: 25 Oct 23, 20:28   in response to: phil44 in response to: phil44
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The subject of what jAlbum does if the "original" you're feeding it is smaller than the image bounds raises some interesting questions. I thought I knew the answer, but my testing shows that it's not right.

I thought that, in that case, jAlbum would just use your original in the album, even if you've told it to scale images. That could be overridden by selecting Images > Advanced > Force processing of small images. But I'm seeing a different byte count between the original and the image file sitting in slides, and it's affected by the JPEG Quality I've selected. Choosing 100% quality, for example, can result in an output image file that's actually over twice the size of the original! Don't ask me how that's possible. ;)

This puzzled me, so I played a hunch, based on what I know about the jAlbum processing sequence. It turns out that your original is passed to the slides output untouched if, and only if, both the image bounds and the thumbnail bounds are larger than the original. That, of course, would be a very bizarre state of affairs. It's hard to imagine when that would happen.
JeffTucker

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Registered: 31-Jan-2006
Re: Re-compression of jpeg images in jAlbum
Posted: 25 Oct 23, 20:38   in response to: JeffTucker in response to: JeffTucker
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JeffTucker wrote:
It turns out that your original is passed to the slides output untouched if, and only if, both the image bounds and the thumbnail bounds are larger than the original.

And it gets weirder. In that case, the output thumbnail image actually has been processed, even though all 3 - original, slide image, thumbnail image - have the same dimensions.

So, if I start with a 600x450 original, set thumbnail and image bounds of 1000x1000, and hold everything else constant (zero sharpening, 75% JPEG Quality, no HiDPI fiddling), I get a slide image that's absolutely identical to the original (same byte count), but a thumbnail file that's slightly smaller. But all three images are 600x450.

Go figure.
phil44

Posts: 108
Registered: 18-Jun-2010
Re: Re-compression of jpeg images in jAlbum
Posted: 26 Oct 23, 12:00   in response to: RobM in response to: RobM
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RobM wrote:
See the attached, bounds set to 20,000. Original on the left, slide page on the right, No filters applied.
Surprising result, the size in pixels is the same, but the weight of the slide has increased from 262kb to 336kb, an increase of almost 30%! I suppose that the final size depends on the jpeg quality used, but it shows clearly that the original is not copied as is in this case. And tests made by Jeff confirms that.
But why shoot with RAW and then use the JPG, unless everything is exactly as you want it?
jAlbum offers a set of good correction tools that can be used most of the time (cropping, horizon correction, light/contrast/saturation, etc.). When it's convenient for me, I import the jpeg and make the corrections directly within jAlbum. But sometimes, jAlbum can't compete with "high-end" photo software in correcting things like perspective, backlighting, haze, digital noise removal, and many more. In my opinion, it's normal that jAlbum doesn't take care of that, it's not its job.
RobM

Posts: 3,925
Registered: 4-Aug-2006
Re: Re-compression of jpeg images in jAlbum
Posted: 26 Oct 23, 14:38   in response to: phil44 in response to: phil44
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The one thing that is often overlooked is perspective correction, especially noticeable in photos of tall buildings. I guess most users are not bothered by the distortion as no one has, as far as I recall, ever asked for perspective control within jAlbum.
JeffTucker

Posts: 7,935
Registered: 31-Jan-2006
Re: Re-compression of jpeg images in jAlbum
Posted: 26 Oct 23, 14:44   in response to: RobM in response to: RobM
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RobM wrote:
I guess most users are not bothered by the distortion....

I think they're just used to seeing it, and accept it as normal. The photos in real estate listing are often taken at extreme wide angles, to make the rooms look bigger. But as a result, there isn't a plumb vertical in the entire place. ;)

And I could never afford the legendary Hasselblad super-wide. Fabulous piece of engineering from the pre-digital era:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/swc.htm
phil44

Posts: 108
Registered: 18-Jun-2010
Re: Re-compression of jpeg images in jAlbum
Posted: 27 Oct 23, 18:35   in response to: JeffTucker in response to: JeffTucker
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JeffTucker wrote:
RobM wrote:
I guess most users are not bothered by the distortion....

I think they're just used to seeing it, and accept it as normal. The photos in real estate listing are often taken at extreme wide angles, to make the rooms look bigger. But as a result, there isn't a plumb vertical in the entire place. ;)

You are probably both right. But for my part, I have a lot of trouble with for example the facades of cathedrals or old houses when they look more like triangles than anything else. This is often the case in cities where you cannot step back to reduce the effects of perspective.

But jAlbum is a tool for creating beautiful image galleries with the most beautiful images possible :-)
phil44

Posts: 108
Registered: 18-Jun-2010
Re: Re-compression of jpeg images in jAlbum
Posted: 27 Oct 23, 18:38   in response to: JeffTucker in response to: JeffTucker
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JeffTucker wrote:
JeffTucker wrote:
It turns out that your original is passed to the slides output untouched if, and only if, both the image bounds and the thumbnail bounds are larger than the original.

And it gets weirder. In that case, the output thumbnail image actually has been processed, even though all 3 - original, slide image, thumbnail image - have the same dimensions.

Could this be considered a bug that would be fixed in a future version of jAlbum?
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