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AndreWolff

Posts: 2,072
Registered: 14-Dec-2007
Re: Allow jAlbum to work with standard DNG RAW files.
Posted: 1 Jul 14, 22:21   in response to: alan927 in response to: alan927
 
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alan927 wrote:
Adobe DNG is itself a RAW format, so when you're converting from your camera's proprietary RAW format to DNG I wouldn't expect any of your Lightroom changes to be included.
After the conversion to DNG, I make the changes in Lightroom. I think I have to make an XMP file for other programs, or export the picture as DNG file. I am new to Lightroom, so I am still learning! for jAlbum I do now an export to JPEG files and that works fine. I will investigate other file types.
AndreWolff

Posts: 2,072
Registered: 14-Dec-2007
Re: Allow jAlbum to work with standard DNG RAW files.
Posted: 3 Jul 14, 22:59   in response to: davidekholm in response to: davidekholm
 
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davidekholm wrote:
Just get the file from http://jrawio.rawdarkroom.org/download/ and unzip to jAlbum's lib folder.

I did download file jrawio-1.6.1-bin.tar.gz, but if I unzip this I get file jrawio-1.6.1-bin.tar and I see in the lib folder only *.jar files, so I think this will not work.

What do I wrong?
davidekholm

Posts: 3,757
Registered: 18-Oct-2002
Re: Allow jAlbum to work with standard DNG RAW files.
Posted: 4 Jul 14, 09:53   in response to: AndreWolff in response to: AndreWolff
 
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You have to un-tar the file too. Here are the two files you need (that came from that tar archive). Put them in jAlbum's "lib" folder and restart jAlbum.
JeffTucker

Posts: 7,678
Registered: 31-Jan-2006
Re: Allow jAlbum to work with standard DNG RAW files.
Posted: 4 Jul 14, 11:58   in response to: davidekholm in response to: davidekholm
 
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davidekholm wrote:
You have to un-tar the file too.

This is a common problem. Windows has no utility to un-tar a file. A real pain. You end up having to grab something like 7-zip: http://www.7-zip.org/. But be careful - lately, I've seen downloads from SourceForge that are loaded with "offers" to install various kinds of crapware along with the freebie you're after. It can be like a minefield.

The gold standard of unzipping packages, WinRAR, is not free.
AndreWolff

Posts: 2,072
Registered: 14-Dec-2007
Re: Allow jAlbum to work with standard DNG RAW files.
Posted: 4 Jul 14, 12:12   in response to: JeffTucker in response to: JeffTucker
 
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jGromit wrote:
This is a common problem. Windows has no utility to un-tar a file. A real pain. You end up having to grab something like 7-zip
I did use 7-ZIP, but I did not know tar a .tar file is still compressed.
Strange that 7-ZIP does not unzip the whole tree!
JeffTucker

Posts: 7,678
Registered: 31-Jan-2006
Re: Allow jAlbum to work with standard DNG RAW files.
Posted: 4 Jul 14, 12:23   in response to: AndreWolff in response to: AndreWolff
 
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The unzipper knows only about the top level of compression. So, running whatever.tar.gz through 7-zip removes the gz compression, leaving you with whatever.tar. Then running whatever.tar through 7-zip removes the tar compression.
AndreWolff

Posts: 2,072
Registered: 14-Dec-2007
Re: Allow jAlbum to work with standard DNG RAW files.
Posted: 4 Jul 14, 12:52   in response to: davidekholm in response to: davidekholm
 
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Attachment screenshot.24.png (86.3 KB)
Attachment screenshot.23.png (451.6 KB)
Attachment screenshot.22.png (39.7 KB)
Attachment screenshot.21.png (458.6 KB)
Attachment screenshot.20.png (244.3 KB)
davidekholm wrote:
You have to un-tar the file too. Here are the two files you need (that came from that tar archive). Put them in jAlbum's "lib" folder and restart jAlbum.
OK I moved the 2 files to the lib folder and started a project with dng files.
I took about 30 minutes to generate an album with 18 dng images.
It started with grey thumbnails in jAlbum, see screenshot_20 and after a while coloured thumbnails were shown, see screenshot_21.
Just before the album was finished an error window was shown, see screenshot_22.
At the end I could start a preview, see screenshot_23, but the result was useless, see screenshot_24.

So this is not yet the solution!
davidekholm

Posts: 3,757
Registered: 18-Oct-2002
Re: Allow jAlbum to work with standard DNG RAW files.
Posted: 6 Jul 14, 15:18   in response to: AndreWolff in response to: AndreWolff
 
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AndreWolff wrote:
davidekholm wrote:
You have to un-tar the file too. Here are the two files you need (that came from that tar archive). Put them in jAlbum's "lib" folder and restart jAlbum.
OK I moved the 2 files to the lib folder and started a project with dng files.
I took about 30 minutes to generate an album with 18 dng images.
It started with grey thumbnails in jAlbum, see screenshot_20 and after a while coloured thumbnails were shown, see screenshot_21.
Just before the album was finished an error window was shown, see screenshot_22.
At the end I could start a preview, see screenshot_23, but the result was useless, see screenshot_24.

So this is not yet the solution!


As one step in the right direction, please provide a couple of your dng files for download so Fabrizio (the author of the dng/raw reader) can look into it.
JeffTucker

Posts: 7,678
Registered: 31-Jan-2006
Re: Allow jAlbum to work with standard DNG RAW files.
Posted: 6 Jul 14, 15:30   in response to: davidekholm in response to: davidekholm
 
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Boy, talk about a wild goose chase!

As I understand it, DNG is simply a "universal" version of RAW, whereas RAW is different for every camera maker. But DNG is still a raw, unprocessed, unmodified version of the image, without any application of white balance, color saturation, hue, etc., etc. So on its own, it's not usable for much of anything.

Many applications, like LR, now know how to open a DNG file and work with it. But each application may be storing its modifications in a different way. In short, there's a standard format for a DNG file, but no standard format for the image modifications. So it's unlikely that a single Java image processing utility will be able to render the image in the final form that the photographer wants.

Now maybe I'm misunderstanding all of this, but I don't think I am.
fabriziogiudici

Posts: 5
Registered: 5-Feb-2006
Re: Allow jAlbum to work with standard DNG RAW files.
Posted: 6 Jul 14, 15:51   in response to: JeffTucker in response to: JeffTucker
 
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First, sorry for the late feedback but I've been able to catch a flue-like illness with fever in summer... I'm slowly recovering.

@jGromit. You're mostly right. To recap things, DNG is a refinement of TIFF. It supports various types of encoding, including the same RAW encoding of the original file, because it must support non-destructive editing. So, yes, if you converted a "native RAW" to DNG you have still to apply all the stuff, such as demosaicing, saturation, sharpening, etc...

DNG also have standard tags for these manipulations: for instance, linearization, curves, etc... See [1] for a reference. So parts of the editing information should be there (or in a sidecar XMP). Of course, it will be there only if the application which did the editing "played right". I think we're safe to assume that all Adobe applications play right in this respect. I can see all the editing parameters of Lightroom in my XMP, for instance. The problem is how to relate a given parameter value to the formula to apply to pixels. I mean: I can read that a photo has been post-processed in Lightroom with "vibrance=20", but at the moment I don't know how to mathematically treat it.

A single Java (or whatever) application can support all of this, because usually DNG also carries the information about the application that created it (e.g. Lightroom v5.4), so it can apply different recipes in different cases, provided we have the knowledge of what to do. I don't have, as I stated, so here somebody should help. What makes senses is to approach the problem in an incremental way, as David suggested, that is focus on a subset of applications and features, trying to fix the related use cases, and then go on. Clearly it's not something we solve in a few weeks.

[1] http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/products/photoshop/pdfs/dng_spec.pdf

JeffTucker

Posts: 7,678
Registered: 31-Jan-2006
Re: Allow jAlbum to work with standard DNG RAW files.
Posted: 6 Jul 14, 16:11   in response to: fabriziogiudici in response to: fabriziogiudici
 
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fabriziogiudici wrote:
Of course, it will be there only if the application which did the editing "played right".

I'm willing to bet that there are going to be some nasty surprises. ;)

With JPG's and PNG's, you know where you are. But even with those, the metadata can be a real mess, and some applications have trouble with progressive JPG's (I believe Flash chokes on them, for example). Any other graphics format, and you're in no-man's-land. :)
AndreWolff

Posts: 2,072
Registered: 14-Dec-2007
Re: Allow jAlbum to work with standard DNG RAW files.
Posted: 6 Jul 14, 16:22   in response to: fabriziogiudici in response to: fabriziogiudici
 
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fabriziogiudici wrote:
But perhaps the option of store the things in the DNG is for Camera Raw only, not LR.
We should try. If DNG doesn't contain LR processing data, we have a problem because I will be unable to render the photo as you see it in LR, with the processing applied.
Lightroom 5 stores the image processing data in the Lightroom database, but if a DNG file has to be read by another program, you can give the command 'Save Metadata in file' for that file. These Metadata are by Ligthroom always storend in the DNG file, never in a XMP file.
AndreWolff

Posts: 2,072
Registered: 14-Dec-2007
Re: Allow jAlbum to work with standard DNG RAW files.
Posted: 6 Jul 14, 16:46   in response to: davidekholm in response to: davidekholm
 
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davidekholm wrote:
As one step in the right direction, please provide a couple of your dng files for download so Fabrizio (the author of the dng/raw reader) can look into it.
I have added for you and Fabrizo an example of an image saved as a DNG file compatible with Camera Raw 7.1 or later and exported by Ligthroom 5.5. The same image is added as TIFF-16bits file, TIFF-8bits file and JPEG file, all exported in the same way by Ligthroom 5.5

If you need more, you can get more files!

However I get the error message:
File '140705-114048_OnzeTuin_16bits.tif' is too large.
File '140705-114048_OnzeTuin.dng' is too large.

You can download these files from my website:
http://www.andrewolff.nl/forum/140705-114048_OnzeTuin.dng
and
http://www.andrewolff.nl/forum/140705-114048_OnzeTuin_16bits.tif

Edited by: AndreWolff on 06-Jul-2014 16:58
fabriziogiudici

Posts: 5
Registered: 5-Feb-2006
Re: Allow jAlbum to work with standard DNG RAW files.
Posted: 6 Jul 14, 17:08   in response to: JeffTucker in response to: JeffTucker
 
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I'm willing to bet that there are going to be some nasty surprises. ;)

Sure, no doubts about that.

With JPG's and PNG's, you know where you are. But even with those, the metadata can be a real mess, and some applications have trouble with progressive JPG's (I believe Flash chokes on them, for example). Any other graphics format, and you're in no-man's-land.

True, but what we infer is that the task is much worse, really hard, but not necessarily impossible.

Edited by: fabriziogiudici on 06-Jul-2014 17:09
AndreWolff

Posts: 2,072
Registered: 14-Dec-2007
Re: Allow jAlbum to work with standard DNG RAW files.
Posted: 11 Aug 14, 17:54   in response to: alan927 in response to: alan927
 
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alan927 wrote:
Adobe DNG is itself a RAW format, so when you're converting from your camera's proprietary RAW format to DNG I wouldn't expect any of your Lightroom changes to be included.

That is not correct: In Lightroom 5 you can right-click on a folder in the left pane and choose pop-up menu item “Save Metadata” to copy all changes (metadata) from the Lightroom database to the DNG files, so if jAlbum could read the DNG-files, all changes would be visible in jAlbum.
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